Transcript of Jon Baron’s Interview

 A Conversation with Jon Baron

Jon Baron has spent his career asking a simple question that most people in government avoid: what actually works. A lawyer by training, he became a leading advocate for evidence-based public policy as founder and president of the Coalition for Evidence-Based Policy. He worked for Congress, served in the Defense Department during the Clinton administration, and later ran for governor of Maryland.

He sat down for an interview on Tutors, Mentors, and the City, hosted by Kevin “Dotcom” Brown through The City Tutors, to talk about law and public policy, running for office, taking risks, and what he wishes more young people understood about building a life in public service.

“Who are you?”

Kevin “Dotcom” Brown:
When people ask, “Who are you,” how do you answer that?

Jon Baron:
Professionally, I am the president of a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization called the Coalition for Evidence-Based Policy. I founded it in 2001, and on and off I have led it since then.

We work with government, Congress, and administrations of both parties, starting with the Bush administration and then the Obama administration, to change how public dollars are spent in areas like education, job training, and other social programs.

My whole career has really been devoted to one idea. When we try to solve big social problems like poverty, failing schools, crime, or substance abuse, it is not enough for government to roll out one well intentioned, good sounding idea after another and hope they work. Guessing has not brought much progress, and it will not, for a simple reason: many government programs, no matter how well meaning or plausible, just do not work when we actually measure results.

To make real progress, we need to expand solutions that do not just sound good, but have been tested in the real world and shown to make a big difference in people’s lives. Things like increasing earnings for low income workers or improving college graduation rates for low income and minority students. It is about focusing government funding on what has been rigorously tested and proven.

I can give concrete examples of that, but that is the through line of my career. I am also a lawyer. I went to law school and public policy school. I worked for Congress right out of school, then at the Defense Department in the Clinton administration. After that I made a big shift and started the nonprofit I just described, ran it for about 14 years, joined a philanthropic foundation, and eventually ran unsuccessfully for governor of Maryland. So you are not talking to the current governor of Maryland. I am now in the process of relaunching the nonprofit work. That is the big picture.

From law school to public policy

Kevin:
Some of our viewers are finishing master’s degrees and thinking about law school. The legal mind has a reputation for brilliance. You got your law degree, then pivoted to nonprofit and public policy.

What did you expect the law to be, and what made you pivot?

Jon:
The honest answer is that I did not really know what to expect. My older brother became a lawyer just before I did, but it was not a long family tradition of law. My father was not a lawyer, my mother was not a lawyer, my grandfather was not a lawyer.

In law school, a lot of people already understood clerkships and law firms and the different tracks. I knew almost none of that. So I cannot say I went in with a clear picture.

I did a joint program. I earned a law degree and a master’s in public policy at the same time. My heart was always in public policy, which to me means trying to make government policy solve real problems. Law is often about advocating for one side. There is problem solving in it, but the core is advocacy.

After school, I tell people I practiced law for about five minutes. I worked at a law firm one summer and realized it was not for me. What I really wanted was to be on the policy side.

I worked briefly for the Dukakis–Bentsen presidential campaign in 1988. That did not end with me in the White House. Then I got a job with Congress. That was a policy job, and everything after that was either in government or working very closely with government to solve problems.

The law degree was still helpful. It is important to understand how laws are written, how they are interpreted, how the system works. That helped a lot, especially on Capitol Hill. But my passion was always problem solving more than pure legal advocacy.

College debt then and now

Kevin:
You earned your law degree in what year?

Jon:
Nineteen eighty eight.

Kevin:
Today, student debt is a huge issue. Was it already a big factor back then?

Jon:
Not nearly to the extent it is now. I went to high school and college in Texas. I attended Rice University in Houston. It is a great school, and as I recall tuition was about three thousand dollars per semester for in state students. That was relatively affordable.

Since then, the cost of higher education has gone up astronomically. The role of loans, grants, and financial aid has become overwhelming. For many students now it is an enormous burden.

For me, I was fortunate in another way too. I came from a family where my parents could afford to pay for my education and chose to do so. They covered college, law school, and graduate school. They were middle class, but they made it a priority and had an unspoken rule that I would do the same for my kids, which I have. I have two children who have graduated from college. So I was very blessed. That is not the typical story now.

“What is the secret sauce?”

Kevin:
I usually save this question for the end, but I want to bring it in now because I think it will open other doors.

Say a young person watching this wants to be a lawyer and also wants to change the world through public policy. From your experience, what is the secret sauce they should know?

Jon:
I suspect if you answered that question, you might say something similar to what I am about to say. It takes a lot of trial and error to figure out what you really want to do.

I did not know. I thought I might want to be a lawyer. I thought I wanted to work in public policy, but the truth is that when I started, I did not even fully understand what public policy meant in practice.

So I tried different things. I worked for Congress. I worked for the largest bureaucracy in the world, the U.S. Department of Defense. I moved into technology policy, which meant trying to build and fund new technology companies. That was interesting.

Then when I was around thirty eight or thirty nine, I realized that this was not what I wanted to devote my life to. My passion was in tackling big social problems like poverty, economic inequality, and failing schools, where the country was not making much progress. So I took a risk and started a nonprofit.

I did not know if it would work. I did not know if I could get foundation or government funding. I had a wife, young children, and all the normal responsibilities. We could afford for me to take some risk because she had a steady government salary, and she carried a lot of the financial load while I tried to build the organization.

The point is that it is very hard to know at the beginning exactly what your path will be, what your passion is, and what the world will allow you to do. I took many professional risks, knowing some would fail. One of those was running for governor, which we can talk about. I never took reckless risks that would destroy my family’s finances or safety, but I did step into uncertainty over and over.

So part of the secret sauce is to be willing to try things, take real but thoughtful risks, and accept that some attempts will not work out. You learn from each one.

The second part is what you yourself emphasized in your own story. I ask for help and advice a lot, and I take it seriously. When people who work with me or for me say, “This idea is not good,” or “This will not land,” I listen. After campaign events, I would ask my team, “What did I do well? What did I do badly? Tell me honestly.”

Being open to input, really letting other people’s feedback shape your decisions, is just as important as risk taking.

Running for governor

Kevin:
Let us talk about your run for governor. That is impressive. We know it costs serious money to run for office now. When did you run, and what was that experience like?

Jon:
I ran last year. There were ten of us in the primary for governor of Maryland. The sitting governor was term limited, so it was a completely open race. A lot of people jumped in.

Raising money is a huge part of it. I am not wealthy, so I could not fund my own campaign. I had to raise money the old fashioned way. That meant hiring a fundraising consultant and spending several hours a day on the phone calling everyone I knew and many people they knew.

The call would go something like this: “I am running for governor. Here is why. Can I count on your support for two hundred fifty dollars, or one thousand dollars, or whatever you can manage?”

I called some wealthy people I knew from law school or earlier in my career, but most of the time it was just regular people in my network. I would also ask them to host fundraisers, which is a hard ask, even with close friends. I do not actually like asking for money, but if you are going to be a serious candidate you have to do it.

We were reasonably successful. We raised enough for good television ads, and I was proud of those. In the end, I did not win, but I gave it everything I had.

Kevin:
Politically, a lot of us imagine smoke filled rooms, super PACs, billionaires. I have never heard someone say, as plainly as you just did, “I ran for office and called everyone I knew asking for two hundred fifty dollars.”

So if I decided to run for office, is that really what I would have to do, call every person I know and ask for money and events?

Jon:
Yes. That is exactly what you would have to do. And the people you named, if you know them, would be great calls.

If you want my view of what it takes to be competitive in a statewide race, there are two ingredients. First is the ability to raise enough money to get on television. In a state like Maryland you cannot knock on every door. When we finally went on television, people started recognizing me in the grocery store and the barber shop. That is how you reach large numbers of voters.

Second is a compelling idea that really resonates. I tried to build my campaign around evidence based policy, scaling up programs that have been rigorously tested and shown to reduce poverty and improve outcomes. I believed that if I could find a way to express that idea clearly enough to catch on with voters, Maryland could become the first state to really move the needle on these issues.

I do not think I cracked that second part as well as I hoped, but that is the combination: resources to be heard, and an idea that sticks.

Growing up, moving, and coming home

Kevin:
Where did you grow up, and what did that look like?

Jon:
I was born in Maryland and lived here through seventh grade. In eighth grade my family moved to Texas. I went to high school and college there and eventually moved back to Maryland as an adult.

I remember the exact day we moved to Texas, August 9, 1975, because it was exactly one year after President Nixon resigned. When we left, I told myself I would find a way back to Maryland, which always felt like home to me.

After law school and the Dukakis campaign, I moved back to the Washington, DC area, met my wife, and we eventually bought a house in Bethesda, Maryland. I have lived there since 1994.

Kevin:
Public school or private school?

Jon:
All public schools. Growing up in Maryland and then in Texas, all the way through high school, I was in public school.

Kevin:
What did you do for fun growing up?

Jon:
Some of the happiest times of my life were playing wiffle ball and softball as a kid. In high school I was also on the speech and debate team, which is where I learned public speaking and argument skills. I was not a great athlete, but debate and speaking were things I really enjoyed.

Inside the Pentagon

Kevin:
You mentioned working for the biggest bureaucracy in the world, the Department of Defense. When most of us hear that, we picture security clearances and a maze of hierarchy.

How does someone even get a job there, and who do you actually meet?

Jon:
There are a couple of paths. Many people enter as career civil servants. They apply for specific positions and then work their way up. I came in as a political appointee in the Clinton administration.

Getting hired was the hard part. I had to obtain a top secret security clearance. That meant investigators talking to neighbors, classmates, people who knew me in college, asking about my background, any drug use, any troubling associations. It took a long time, even though my record was straightforward.

Once I was in, I worked several levels down from the top. The Secretary of Defense is the top job. At that time it was William Perry. The most senior person I dealt with directly was the Deputy Secretary, John Deutch, when I was first brought on. After that, I mainly interacted with people a few levels down, and only occasionally met with the number three person in the department. It is a massive structure.

Leaving was much simpler. You hand in your badge and do some paperwork, but the real intensity is on the way in.

Family paths and the “racket” of bar dues

Kevin:
You mentioned your children. Are they following similar paths?

Jon:
They are charting their own paths. My older son works for a government contractor in Washington, DC, and he plans to go to law school, but he wants to be a practicing lawyer in a way I never did. My wife is a real lawyer. I was really only a practicing lawyer for that brief “five minutes.”

My younger son graduated from the University of Michigan and is interested in conservation. He works for the Forest Service and other conservation organizations out West, far from DC. I am very proud of both of them.

Kevin:
Did you keep your law license active?

Jon:
Yes, although I sometimes joke that it is a bit of a racket. I am an inactive member of the DC bar, which means I am not practicing but I maintain my status. I still pay about one hundred fifty dollars a year for dues and they send me a magazine I do not read.

So technically, if I woke up tomorrow with a burning desire to practice law again, I could reactivate and do it. There is no danger of that happening.

Secret sauce, part two

Kevin:
I want to come back to the “secret sauce” idea from another angle. During the pandemic, before vaccines, I had COVID for ninety days. My family did not think I would survive. I checked all the boxes for someone unlikely to make it.

I spent days sweating nonstop, other days shivering under blankets. I really thought it was over, so I started thinking about what I would record on my phone for my daughters.

What I told my older daughter was simple: do not be afraid to ask for help. You learn two things when you ask. You learn who will help you, which is valuable, and you also learn who will not, which might be even more important.

You heard that and said it sparked something for you. How has that played out in your own life?

Jon:
First, that is a powerful story, and I am glad you are still here to tell it.

Your lesson about asking for help fits closely with how I have tried to live. Let me connect it to my own experience in two ways.

The first is about risk. I have taken a lot of personal and professional risks, not reckless ones, but real ones. When I was younger, in my teens and twenties, I had a lot of social anxiety, especially around dating and meeting women. At some point I realized the worst that would happen if I asked someone out was that I would be embarrassed.

So I made a rule for myself: whenever I met a woman I was genuinely interested in, I would ask her out, no matter how awkward I felt. Most of those attempts did not go anywhere, which is normal. But you get better with practice and eventually the right things click. That approach led to some good relationships and, ultimately, to meeting my wife. We have been married for twenty eight years.

In my career, I have done something similar. I took a risk starting a nonprofit. I left certain jobs when they were not a good fit, including my first role at the Pentagon, which was very anxiety provoking at the time. I ran for governor knowing the odds were long. I told myself I did not want to reach the end of my life thinking “woulda, coulda, shoulda.” I would rather try, fail publicly if that is what happens, and know I made the attempt.

The second connection is exactly what you said. I ask for help and feedback constantly. I have asked employees, colleagues, and campaign staff, “What am I doing wrong? What am I missing?” After each campaign event I would ask my team what landed and what did not and tried to really listen.

So if I had to compress it, I would say: take more risks than feel comfortable, and be as open as you can to other people’s honest input. Those two things together can carry you a long way.

Final reflections

Kevin:
We have covered a lot. Is there anything we have not touched on that you want to share before we close?

Jon:
I think you have pulled just about everything out of me. I feel like an empty vessel. That might be the full sixty one years of wisdom, such as it is. This has been fun.

Kevin:
Looking at you on camera, I would not put you at that age. I would put you twenty years younger.

Jon:
The camera must be doing something kind. I appreciate you saying that.

Kevin:
Thank you for sharing your story. I am always looking for patterns across conversations. My school guidance counselor once told me you pick a career, do it for thirty years, then retire to Florida. I do not hear that story anymore. I hear stories like yours, with pivots and risks and second acts.

I also want to say, as I work toward a PhD and think about public scholarship and impact, I would love to keep this conversation going and find ways to collaborate. I want good people to win. The loudest, most harmful voices often have the biggest platforms, and I think we have to figure out how to balance that.

Jon:
I agree completely. We each have to find our own way to step up and try to make the world better. People who are well intentioned, creative, and persistent are essential.

And I will say this: no matter how high you rise academically, I am not calling you Dr. Brown. I knew you before that. I am sticking with Kevin or Dotcom.

Kevin:
How about Doctor Dotcom?

Jon:
Actually, that is pretty good.

Kevin:
My mom would love that. Thank you again for joining us. I really appreciate your time and your honesty.

Jon:
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it, and I hope our paths cross again.

Kevin:
They will. Thank you, Jon.